Sunday, August 16, 2009

On The Trinity And Creeds

"[We believe in] one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His future manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to Gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all..."
- Irenaeus of Lyon (115-190), Against Heresies X.I

5 comments:

Adam Pastor said...

Greetings Mark Austin

On the subject of the Trinity,
I recommend this video:
The Human Jesus


Take a couple of hours to watch it; and prayerfully it will aid you in your quest for truth.

Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor

Mark Austin said...

Adam,

That's an interesting link. And a long one too! I have watched about 15 minutes of it and read some of your articles on your blog "is the Trinity in the New Testament" and also "1 Cor. 8:6 - There is solely ONE GOD, YAHWEH; and one 'Lord', the man Jesus of Nazareth."

And, if I understand what you and Restoration Fellowship propose is simply that Jesus is not LORD. Namely, not only do you reject the Trinity, but you would also, naturally reject the Binity. If I understand further, you do so due to the importanc of the concept of strict monotheism (cf. Deut 6:8 and so forth). Moreover, this strict monotheism is to help pacify relations among Islam, Jew and Christian.

Have you read any of the texts by Richard Bauckham (Jesus and the God of Israel: God Crucified and Other Studies on the New Testament's Christology of Divine Identity), Karl Rahner (on the Trinity)or anything by Larry Hurtado? Furthermore, do you have any thoughts on John 10:22-42? I think these texts, and that Scripture fully explain how in fact Jesus (the Son) is "echad" with the Father.

I look forward to a generous and fruitful discussion.

Up front, I believe Jesus Christ is LORD. I hold to the Trinity, and I believe it is necessary to believe Jesus is LORD in order for His death on the cross to have any benefit as a propitation for sin and as a subsitutionary atonement for those who believe.

Adam Pastor said...

Greetings Mark Austin

Quite a few of the queries that you have are indeed answered in the video, so please persevere and watch it to the end.

Nevertheless,
I most definitely believe that Jesus Christ is "Lord"
to the glory of GOD the Father

[Phil 2.11]

If you mean by "Jesus is LORD" that "Jesus is YHWH",
then no, I do not believe that;
since scripturally,
YHWH is the ONE GOD, the GOD & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[2 Cor 11.31, Eph 1.3, Col 1.3, 1 Pet 1.3]

However Jesus is indeed the 'Lord' spoken of in the most quoted OT verse in the NT i.e.
Psalm 110.1.
YHWH said unto my Lord,
Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Psalm 110.1 as used by Jesus & his disciples defines Jesus' Lordship, especially in relation to the ONE GOD.
It defines what is meant by
'Jesus is Lord'
I won't elaborate here since the video explains this point adequately.

Now it is not about pacifying anyone but rather, by GOD's grace, bringing people to the Truth of the ONE GOD and His Son.

By showing that the Scriptures indeed do not teach a trinity or binity;
this in turn will facilitate in all (including Jews and Moslems) to hear the truth of
who Jesus really is!

The video also deals with John 10 & echad.

So please I encourage you, Mark, to watch the entire video.
And then, if you have any queries, feel free to ask, and I will do my best to answer you.

Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
The Human Jesus

Mark Austin said...

Adam,

I appreciate your response and your generous tone. I haven't finished the video yet, and I will, so please do not think I am ignoring you, I am just busy -but hopefully I can get to it by this weekend sometime.

I look forward to a good discussion!

Adam Pastor said...

That's fine
No hurry